Discussion:
Contact Elected Officials to Correct Discrimination Against Depressed Americans
(too old to reply)
pjbphd
2005-09-09 17:27:03 UTC
Permalink
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has a blanket disqualification by
for any person seeking a private pilot certification who admits to having or
being treated for depression. I urge everyone to contact the congressional
representative, Senators and the President and demand a correction to this
discriminatory practice. Here is a little of my personal background to
explain the situation.



Last year I decided to pursue a long time desire to become a private pilot.
In addition to the recreational aspects of flying, I had an opportunity for
career advancement that would have taken me far from my home for several
days a week. I had hoped to do a least a portion of this commute via
airplane.



I located a local flight school and began my lessons. I was doing quite
well but prior to my first solo flight I was required to undergo an
examination by a designated Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Aviation
Medical Examiner. During this examination I revealed that for several years
I have taken Effexor® (venlafaxine HCL) under the direction of another
physician. I was shocked to learn that this disqualifies me from receiving a
medical certificate allowing me to fly. When I informed the physician that
prescribed me the medication, he was also dumbfounded by the blanket
disqualification for anyone using a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor
(SSRI). In fact, after their use is discontinued, I must wait 90 days
before I can reapply for a medical certificate. I've been asymptomatic for
some time, perhaps do to Effexor®. As a result of this injustice, I was
forced to decline the job offer. My options now are to either give up on my
desire to fly or to discontinue the use of Effexor®.



Depression affects one out of ten patients who visit their doctor. In the
past, and to some extent today, there is a stigma associated with the
illness. These FAA rules reinforce that stigma. I don't want to fly, or
be in the sky with anyone that has impaired abilities due to a medication an
illness. The FAA's logic and information on the illness and its treatment
is woefully outdated. Thirty years ago, psychological medicines had crude
mechanisms of action and their side effects were so severe, that they were
only used in the gravest of psychiatric illnesses. This is no longer true.
The physician who prescribed the medication to me agrees that my cognitive
and other functions are not affected by Effexor®. Nevertheless, the FAA
apparently will not permit a waiver for its use by a pilot.



The FAA claims to allow for waivers from the blanket rule. I submitted an
evaluation from my treating physician who stated:



"He has gone for over a year without a single panic attack when he was
continuing on therapeutic doses of Effexor. He does not have side effect to
Effexor. It does not make him groggy or have other side effects such as
blurred vision which might interfere, in my opinion, with operating an
airplane or any other motor vehicle. I do not know of any other cognitive
or emotional problems that he has that would interfere with his flying."



Additionally, ALL recent medical and aviation literature I have been able to
locate, including a report prepared at the request of the Aerospace Medical
Association, suggests that in managed cases of depressive disorders, special
issuances or waivers of SSRI use are justified. This is the case in both
Canada and Australia. Nevertheless, the FAA denied me a waiver and thus my
medical certification.



I thought such a blanket disqualification may violate the Americans with
Disabilities Act. However, the ADA does not apply to Federal agencies. The
FAAs manner of enforcing their draconian measures may violate the
Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and /or the Administrative Procedures Act. This
may also cause a disproportionate disqualification of armed servicemen and
women returning from deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan due to the
apparently high level of delayed stress syndrome for those in harms way.



Subsequent to the denial of my medical certificate, I filed a Freedom of
Information Act request with the FAA in September, 2004. I asked for copies
of all data and references used to make the determination not to grant pilot's
certificates to any individual who admits seeking treatment for depression
or the use of any SSRI. I also requested how this decision complies with the
FAA's policies under the Federal Data Quality Act. Finally, I asked for a
tally of requests for exceptions to the disqualification for using SSRIs the
FAA has received and the number it has granted.



The FAA responded in April. In summary, they have not considered any
pertinent literature since 1997. Furthermore, they have only granted a
single waiver for this condition.



Please write to your elected officials and demand that they correct this
injustice by requiring the FAA to evaluate medical applications individually
through contact with the treating physician. If the FAA refuses, demand a
legislative correction in the next Department of Transportation
Appropriations bill or some other legislation.



Thanks.



pjb
culprit
2005-09-09 18:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by pjbphd
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has a blanket disqualification
by for any person seeking a private pilot certification who admits to
having or being treated for depression. I urge everyone to contact the
congressional representative, Senators and the President and demand a
correction to this discriminatory practice. Here is a little of my
personal background to explain the situation.
this statement is misleading. the FAA disqualifies people who are using
SSRIs due to potentially negative side effects which may effect their
ability to fly. if you discontinue the med, you may fly, history of
depression or treatment is not necessarily a disqualifier in itself.

http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/AAM-400A/FASMB/HOP/depress.htm

"The FAA does not presently certify persons who use mood-altering
medication. The reasoning is twofold: the underlying condition that requires
the medication and the potential adverse side effects from the medication
itself. *The good news is that the FAA is willing to return virtually all
clinically depressed pilots back to flying after successful treatment.*"

there are exceptions for psychosis, bipolar, and other disorders. many
disorders such as anxiety, ADHD, and personality disorders are evaluated by
the FAA who can make a decision then.

it's not about discrimination, it's about safety. do the research and talk
to your local FAA surgeon.

-kelly
pjbphd
2005-09-09 22:23:16 UTC
Permalink
I have done my homework. In fact the American Psychiatric Society has
offered to provide me with an Amicus brief if I decide to pursue legal
action. The FAA's stand is that NOBODY who admits to having a depressive
illness, seeking treatment for such, or taking medication to treat
depression is capable of operating an aircraft. In other words, any
commercial pilot that admits to being depressed loses his or her job.

I have no problem with the FAA screening folks that demonstrate their health
issues impact their cognitive or any other abilities. My problem is with an
overly broad discriminatory policy that stopped looking a the medical
literature in 1997. If they want to put me through a battery of tests and
require that I pay for them, fine. Right now, my only recourse is to
discontinue medical treatment.

Also, the literature suggests that quite a few pilots simply lie during
their medical certifications. Furthermore, according to Czech (2004) " a
five year case study of contacts confirms that he prevalence of depression
among pilots is between 12 and 20%, consistent with prevalence rates for the
general public...postmortem toxicological evaluation of 4,128 pilots from
civil aviation accidents between 1990 and 2001 showed that 61 (1.48%) pilots
had been taking SSRIs"

Statistics can certainly be misleading, but that indicates to me that pilots
on SSRIs are LESS likely to be in aviation accidents, perhaps because they
sought treatment.

Furthermore, the FAA says they will review individual cases, but has allowed
an exception for one individual and I believe that was court driven.

Finally, where is the logic for the FAA to certify individuals with
diagnoses psychosis taking lithium, pilots with vision in a single eye and
other physical ailments but not SSRIs?
Post by culprit
Post by pjbphd
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has a blanket disqualification
by for any person seeking a private pilot certification who admits to
having or being treated for depression. I urge everyone to contact the
congressional representative, Senators and the President and demand a
correction to this discriminatory practice. Here is a little of my
personal background to explain the situation.
this statement is misleading. the FAA disqualifies people who are using
SSRIs due to potentially negative side effects which may effect their
ability to fly. if you discontinue the med, you may fly, history of
depression or treatment is not necessarily a disqualifier in itself.
http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/AAM-400A/FASMB/HOP/depress.htm
"The FAA does not presently certify persons who use mood-altering
medication. The reasoning is twofold: the underlying condition that
requires the medication and the potential adverse side effects from the
medication itself. *The good news is that the FAA is willing to return
virtually all clinically depressed pilots back to flying after successful
treatment.*"
there are exceptions for psychosis, bipolar, and other disorders. many
disorders such as anxiety, ADHD, and personality disorders are evaluated
by the FAA who can make a decision then.
it's not about discrimination, it's about safety. do the research and
talk to your local FAA surgeon.
-kelly
culprit
2005-09-09 22:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by pjbphd
I have done my homework. In fact the American Psychiatric Society has
offered to provide me with an Amicus brief if I decide to pursue legal
action. The FAA's stand is that NOBODY who admits to having a depressive
illness, seeking treatment for such, or taking medication to treat
depression is capable of operating an aircraft. In other words, any
commercial pilot that admits to being depressed loses his or her job.
first, read the FAA site. i posted it for you. second, if you're taking
psychiatric meds, you shouldn't be flying, because they can effect your
ability to function! jeez. go take the damn physical before you talk about
suing them. what's with the litigation first, questions later attitude?

-kelly
pjbphd
2005-09-09 23:07:44 UTC
Permalink
You didn't post the FAA site, you posted the Federal Air Surgeon's Medical
Bulletin site from 2000. The Czech article I cited was in the same journal
in 2004 and recommends a reevaluation of the ban based on data, not
speculation.

Also, I did take the physical and was denied because I didn't lie when I was
asked what medications I'm on and why. I have worked through the appeal
process including presenting information from the physician that prescribed
the medication and knows me and my limitations much better than the FAA
flight surgeon or the medical evaluator. My appeal was denied. I am trying
to avoid a lawsuit. That's why I encourage a legislative solution.

Funny, I haven't heard of any rash of Canadian or Australian pilots on meds
auguring in lately.
Post by culprit
Post by pjbphd
I have done my homework. In fact the American Psychiatric Society has
offered to provide me with an Amicus brief if I decide to pursue legal
action. The FAA's stand is that NOBODY who admits to having a depressive
illness, seeking treatment for such, or taking medication to treat
depression is capable of operating an aircraft. In other words, any
commercial pilot that admits to being depressed loses his or her job.
first, read the FAA site. i posted it for you. second, if you're taking
psychiatric meds, you shouldn't be flying, because they can effect your
ability to function! jeez. go take the damn physical before you talk
about suing them. what's with the litigation first, questions later
attitude?
-kelly
culprit
2005-09-09 23:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by pjbphd
You didn't post the FAA site, you posted the Federal Air Surgeon's Medical
Bulletin site from 2000.
which is part of the FAA site. just click on the "home" button. how
difficult can that be?
Post by pjbphd
Also, I did take the physical and was denied because I didn't lie when I
was asked what medications I'm on and why.
good. having dangerous pilots flying about is a frightening thing.
Post by pjbphd
I have worked through the appeal process including presenting information
from the physician that prescribed the medication and knows me and my
limitations much better than the FAA flight surgeon or the medical
evaluator. My appeal was denied. I am trying to avoid a lawsuit. That's
why I encourage a legislative solution.
to allow individuals with psycological problems to fly planes is just
obsurd, IMO. if they don't allow diabetics to fly, why should they allow
psychotics or bipolars or people on mind altering drugs to fly? hell, you
can't fly a plane if you have an unhealed ulcer.
Post by pjbphd
Funny, I haven't heard of any rash of Canadian or Australian pilots on
meds auguring in lately.
maybe because they're smart enough to know that the mentally ill shouldn't
be operating potentially deadly machinery?

perhaps you should start out with an ultralight or something. they'd
probably kill less people when you crash them.

-kelly
pjbphd
2005-09-10 00:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by culprit
Post by pjbphd
Funny, I haven't heard of any rash of Canadian or Australian pilots on
meds auguring in lately.
maybe because they're smart enough to know that the mentally ill shouldn't
be operating potentially deadly machinery?
perhaps you should start out with an ultralight or something. they'd
probably kill less people when you crash them.
Too bad you didn't read the article that stated the Canadians and
Australians allow pilots on meds to fly.



It's obvious from your last post that you were captain of the debate team.
Your logic and interrogatory skills are was outstanding. I don't mind
people that disagree with me. Sometimes I find that they are correct and
learn from them. Of course to do so they must make a persuasive argument.
That generally requires some introspection, thought, logic, and intelligence
on their part. Go home now. Recess is over.
culprit
2005-09-12 16:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by pjbphd
Too bad you didn't read the article that stated the Canadians and
Australians allow pilots on meds to fly.
i guess i won't be flying any canadian or austrailian airliines soon.
thanks for the info.

-kelly
Steve
2005-09-13 00:48:04 UTC
Permalink
Not to flame you, but you operate high performance machinery presumably
under the influence of the various not unsubstantial drugs you take.

The guy driving a 80,000 lb big rig could be on anything, legal or not.

I am sorry but I would be fine with a person who is qualified operating a
public transport that I was on even if they took drugs, as long as the drugs
did not have more then a very minor effect on their coordination..

Prejudice really annoys me.
Post by culprit
Post by pjbphd
Too bad you didn't read the article that stated the Canadians and
Australians allow pilots on meds to fly.
i guess i won't be flying any canadian or austrailian airliines soon.
thanks for the info.
-kelly
culprit
2005-09-13 00:53:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Not to flame you, but you operate high performance machinery presumably
under the influence of the various not unsubstantial drugs you take.
The guy driving a 80,000 lb big rig could be on anything, legal or not.
I am sorry but I would be fine with a person who is qualified operating a
public transport that I was on even if they took drugs, as long as the drugs
did not have more then a very minor effect on their coordination..
Prejudice really annoys me.
i operate high performance machinery that weights thousands of pounds and
could fall from the sky? seems like a bit of a difference. a motorcycle
crashing into someone isn't likely to harm anyone but me, and i stay off of
crowded roads and never ride on highways. not true of a plane or a big rig.
it's not about prejudice, it's about safety. truck drivers on meds freak me
out too. they used to be famous for meth and coke. most companies do drug
testing now, as do the local public transport folks. if you're operating
heavy machinery that has a high potential to harm other folks, it just seems
silly to do it in a manner that could possibly harm others.

besides, as i said, i rarely, if ever, ride my bike anymore. i don't have
the concentration to handle it with the meds i'm on. it makes me crazy,
because i love to ride more than anything.

-kelly
Steve
2005-09-13 01:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Your points about the damage a bike can do are well taken, but the S4??!!
Even just a ford focus is dangerous.

I think you are quite responsiable by not riding much in your present state
and I truly hope you recover soon!

Still I do believe that a pilot on AD's is not big deal. Yes a pilot flying
me around in a A380, or a 747 or a 737 or a lil citation.

If they have a level of skill to pass the ATP test and their disability does
not impair their flying then its fine, IMHO.

BTW, do the drug tests given to UPS drivers and their peers transporting
goods and services on very busy highways (six lanes in each direction packed
with traffic all doing at least 100KMPH is far from unusual in the states)
even try to find, say, heavy anti psychotics?
Post by culprit
Post by Steve
Not to flame you, but you operate high performance machinery presumably
under the influence of the various not unsubstantial drugs you take.
The guy driving a 80,000 lb big rig could be on anything, legal or not.
I am sorry but I would be fine with a person who is qualified operating a
public transport that I was on even if they took drugs, as long as the drugs
did not have more then a very minor effect on their coordination..
Prejudice really annoys me.
i operate high performance machinery that weights thousands of pounds and
could fall from the sky? seems like a bit of a difference. a motorcycle
crashing into someone isn't likely to harm anyone but me, and i stay off of
crowded roads and never ride on highways. not true of a plane or a big rig.
it's not about prejudice, it's about safety. truck drivers on meds freak me
out too. they used to be famous for meth and coke. most companies do drug
testing now, as do the local public transport folks. if you're operating
heavy machinery that has a high potential to harm other folks, it just seems
silly to do it in a manner that could possibly harm others.
besides, as i said, i rarely, if ever, ride my bike anymore. i don't have
the concentration to handle it with the meds i'm on. it makes me crazy,
because i love to ride more than anything.
-kelly
culprit
2005-09-13 15:53:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Your points about the damage a bike can do are well taken, but the S4??!!
Even just a ford focus is dangerous.
if i feel even the slightest bit impaired, i call my husband and he picks me
up. even if i have to pull over to the side of the road. i don't want to
put others in danger with my impairment.

look, if diabetics and epileptics shouldn't fly, i don't see why currently
depressed or BP persons should. as i said before, ultra lights, balloons,
and experimental aircraft wouldn't bother me too much, they're like
motorcycles, probably wouldn't hurt anyone but themselves.

when my CO in the army found out i was on Lithium, he wanted to change my
job from field paramedic to laundry person. um, yeah. i took a medical
discharge. it's just how things work. following the rules and all that.

-kelly
Steve
2005-09-13 22:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by culprit
Post by Steve
Your points about the damage a bike can do are well taken, but the S4??!!
Even just a ford focus is dangerous.
if i feel even the slightest bit impaired, i call my husband and he picks me
up. even if i have to pull over to the side of the road. i don't want to
put others in danger with my impairment.
Gee and you say you are suicidal! Your actions seem to indicate otherwise
:)
Post by culprit
look, if diabetics
Well controlled diabetics can not fly??!!

and epileptics shouldn't fly, i don't see why currently
Post by culprit
depressed or BP persons should.
There is a huge difference between mild to moderate depression and diabetes
on one hand and epilepsy on the other!


as i said before, ultra lights, balloons,
Post by culprit
and experimental aircraft wouldn't bother me too much, they're like
motorcycles, probably wouldn't hurt anyone but themselves.
when my CO in the army found out i was on Lithium, he wanted to change my
job from field paramedic to laundry person. um, yeah. i took a medical
discharge. it's just how things work. following the rules and all that.
What was the reason he did that? Stupidity? Those who face their issues
and work on them are hurt and those in denial suffer nothing!
Post by culprit
-kelly
culprit
2005-09-13 22:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Gee and you say you are suicidal! Your actions seem to indicate otherwise
i'm not suicidal at the moment. rapid cycling tends to change that pretty
quickly.

-kelly

MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
2005-09-09 23:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by pjbphd
I have done my homework. In fact the American Psychiatric Society has
offered to provide me with an Amicus brief if I decide to pursue legal
action. The FAA's stand is that NOBODY who admits to having a depressive
illness, seeking treatment for such, or taking medication to treat
depression is capable of operating an aircraft. In other words, any
commercial pilot that admits to being depressed loses his or her job.
I have no problem with the FAA screening folks that demonstrate their health
issues impact their cognitive or any other abilities.
You seem to have a rather poor understanding of depression. There are
many forms and subtypes of "depression" but generally, major depression
AKA clinical depression, causes some cognition deterioration. Major
depression normally causes problems with concentration and memory,
decision making and sometimes other cognition problems that could
definitely affect a person's ability to fly a plane effectively.
Particularly if you are thinking about flying for a career hauling
people around.

Severe forms of depression such as psychotic depression or depression
with melancholic features, can cause outright dementia type problems.
Concentration and memory are shot, making simple decisions becomes very
very difficult, thinking speed literally slows down...all not good for
a commercial pilot.

Also, severe depression oftentimes causes different types of motor
changes. Either agitation or retardation...and neither is good for a
pilot, who must have excellent motor skills and eye/hand cooridination,
manual dexterity, etc. This is one of the reasons the military prefers
men with athlete backgrounds for pilot slots...athleticism translates
into good neural functioning usually and good neural functioning means
a skilled pilot.

Was your "depression" pretty mild? Like as in "Woody allen syndrome"
depression? Because you dont sound like you recognize the fact that
depression in itself can cause cognition deterioration and also motor
changes.


My problem is with an
Post by pjbphd
overly broad discriminatory policy that stopped looking a the medical
literature in 1997. If they want to put me through a battery of tests and
require that I pay for them, fine. Right now, my only recourse is to
discontinue medical treatment.
Also, the literature suggests that quite a few pilots simply lie during
their medical certifications. Furthermore, according to Czech (2004) " a
five year case study of contacts confirms that he prevalence of depression
among pilots is between 12 and 20%, consistent with prevalence rates for the
general public...postmortem toxicological evaluation of 4,128 pilots from
civil aviation accidents between 1990 and 2001 showed that 61 (1.48%) pilots
had been taking SSRIs"
Statistics can certainly be misleading, but that indicates to me that pilots
on SSRIs are LESS likely to be in aviation accidents, perhaps because they
sought treatment.
Furthermore, the FAA says they will review individual cases, but has allowed
an exception for one individual and I believe that was court driven.
Finally, where is the logic for the FAA to certify individuals with
diagnoses psychosis taking lithium, pilots with vision in a single eye and
other physical ailments but not SSRIs?
lithium is not an anti-psychotic it is an anti-manic drug. Lithium is
on the FAA's list of disqualifying medications, as are all
anti-psychotics and most if not all antidepressants.

While I understand your anger and I personally believe nobody should
restrict you from flying recreationally or even commercially hauling
cargo, but commercial aviation flying people around is a very high
stress job. Lots of sleep deprivation, lots of time shift changes and
lots of stress in general. I have a cousin who flies for Continental
and there is a lot of shit to put up with. I personally dont think
commercial aviation is a good career choice for anyone with significant
mental illness. But that is my opinion and you may disagree.

As far as flying for recreation, go for it all you want.

Eric


Eric
MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
2005-09-09 20:46:46 UTC
Permalink
One of the main things that the FAA is concerned about regarding many
psychiatry meds, is the fact that many of the antidepressants elevate
your seizure threshhold. Combined with the fact that you are landing
and taking off at night sometimes with flashing strobe lights
constantly going off around your plane on the runway...and your seizure
threshhold is elevated more. As bright strobe lights elevate the
seizure threshhold a lot. In fact if you have an EEG for epilepsy, the
technicians will hold a strobe over your eyes for a while to see if
that sets off electricial activity in your brain and a seizure.

As far as still being able to fly once you are off meds, I dont know
what the rules are about that. I know there is a strong institutional
bias against "mental patients" in all areas of aviation. A lot of that
probably stems from the strong influence that many retired military
aviators have on civilian aviation. Since there is such a very strong
bias against any sort of mental illness or psych med in the military,
these military aviator guys retire from the service, go into civilian
aviation in some capacity and they carry with them many of their
previous biases and preferences they developed in the military.

That might be part of the problem IMO.

Additionally, some psych meds can cause sedation and that can cause
decreased motor skills and no pilot needs that.

Personally, what I think is that a person should be able to have a FAA
third or maybe even second class flight physical so they can fly
recreationally. I dont see why having mental illness and taking meds
should restrain someone from getting their private and instrument
pilots license. I also dont see any reason why a person on meds
shouldnt be able to get a commercial aviation job hauling non human
freight.

However, I can kind of see the concerns about someone flying people
around if they have psych probs or take psych meds.

Eric
pjbphd
2005-09-10 00:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
Personally, what I think is that a person should be able to have a FAA
third or maybe even second class flight physical so they can fly
recreationally. I dont see why having mental illness and taking meds
should restrain someone from getting their private and instrument
pilots license. I also dont see any reason why a person on meds
shouldnt be able to get a commercial aviation job hauling non human
freight.
That's all I'm looking for, a third class certification. What's frustrating
is that the FAA despite what they say doesn't consider individual cases.
MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
2005-09-10 00:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by pjbphd
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
Personally, what I think is that a person should be able to have a FAA
third or maybe even second class flight physical so they can fly
recreationally. I dont see why having mental illness and taking meds
should restrain someone from getting their private and instrument
pilots license. I also dont see any reason why a person on meds
shouldnt be able to get a commercial aviation job hauling non human
freight.
That's all I'm looking for, a third class certification. What's frustrating
is that the FAA despite what they say doesn't consider individual cases.
You should be able to get a third class FAA flight physical IMO even if
you take meds. With a third class flight physical, all you are going to
be able to do anyway is recreational flying. To get your commerical
license, if I remember correctly, you have to have a first class FAA
flight physical. I KNOW to get your ATP license, you need a first class
flight physical.

IMO, unless you are hauling people around, you should probably be able
to fly despite taking meds. They might put a few restrictions on you,
like minimal night flying due to the strobes on the runway, but IMO,
you should be able to fly.

File a class action lawsuit...I am sure you'd find lots of support for
that.

Eric
Steve
2005-09-10 15:28:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
IMO, unless you are hauling people around, you should probably be able
to fly despite taking meds. They might put a few restrictions on you,
like minimal night flying due to the strobes on the runway, but IMO,
you should be able to fly.
Are you saying that people who suffer from depression and have no medical
issues like epilepsy are prone to seizures simply from strobe lights and
AD's?
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
File a class action lawsuit...I am sure you'd find lots of support for
that.
This legal advice is worth about what most of Eric's advice is--nothing.
Sue the FAA, sure, but a class action, LOL.
MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
2005-09-10 17:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
IMO, unless you are hauling people around, you should probably be able
to fly despite taking meds. They might put a few restrictions on you,
like minimal night flying due to the strobes on the runway, but IMO,
you should be able to fly.
Are you saying that people who suffer from depression and have no medical
issues like epilepsy are prone to seizures simply from strobe lights and
AD's?
Are you saying that you are not mentally ill, steve? Yes or no?
Post by Steve
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
File a class action lawsuit...I am sure you'd find lots of support for
that.
This legal advice is worth about what most of Eric's advice is--nothing.
Sue the FAA, sure, but a class action, LOL.
Saying anything you say is like saying "I'm a retard" a hundred times
over and over again.

Eric
Steve
2005-09-11 01:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
Post by Steve
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
IMO, unless you are hauling people around, you should probably be able
to fly despite taking meds. They might put a few restrictions on you,
like minimal night flying due to the strobes on the runway, but IMO,
you should be able to fly.
Are you saying that people who suffer from depression and have no medical
issues like epilepsy are prone to seizures simply from strobe lights and
AD's?
Are you saying that you are not mentally ill, steve? Yes or no?
Post by Steve
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
File a class action lawsuit...I am sure you'd find lots of support for
that.
This legal advice is worth about what most of Eric's advice is--nothing.
Sue the FAA, sure, but a class action, LOL.
Saying anything you say is like saying "I'm a retard" a hundred times
over and over again.
Eric
MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
2005-09-11 02:21:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by pjbphd
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
Post by Steve
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
IMO, unless you are hauling people around, you should probably be able
to fly despite taking meds. They might put a few restrictions on you,
like minimal night flying due to the strobes on the runway, but IMO,
you should be able to fly.
Are you saying that people who suffer from depression and have no
medical
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
Post by Steve
issues like epilepsy are prone to seizures simply from strobe lights and
AD's?
Are you saying that you are not mentally ill, steve? Yes or no?
Post by Steve
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
File a class action lawsuit...I am sure you'd find lots of support for
that.
This legal advice is worth about what most of Eric's advice is--nothing.
Sue the FAA, sure, but a class action, LOL.
Saying anything you say is like saying "I'm a retard" a hundred times
over and over again.
Eric
so steve, are you or are you not mentally ill?

Eric
Steve
2005-09-11 02:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
Post by pjbphd
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
Post by Steve
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
IMO, unless you are hauling people around, you should probably be able
to fly despite taking meds. They might put a few restrictions on you,
like minimal night flying due to the strobes on the runway, but IMO,
you should be able to fly.
Are you saying that people who suffer from depression and have no
medical
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
Post by Steve
issues like epilepsy are prone to seizures simply from strobe lights and
AD's?
Are you saying that you are not mentally ill, steve? Yes or no?
Post by Steve
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
File a class action lawsuit...I am sure you'd find lots of support for
that.
This legal advice is worth about what most of Eric's advice is--nothing.
Sue the FAA, sure, but a class action, LOL.
Saying anything you say is like saying "I'm a retard" a hundred times
over and over again.
Eric
so steve, are you or are you not mentally ill?
Eric
MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
2005-09-11 03:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Steve wrote:
A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. To get
anywhere, you must first admit you are mentally ill and must admit you
need medications and a psychiatrist.

Eric
Steve
2005-09-11 14:45:19 UTC
Permalink
How do you expect anyone other then your socks to give any weight to a few
lines out of context, Eric?
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. To get
anywhere, you must first admit you are mentally ill and must admit you
need medications and a psychiatrist.
Eric
Messenger
2005-09-11 21:25:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
How do you expect anyone other then your socks to give any weight to a few
lines out of context, Eric?
Eric has said he was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disroder.

You can't interact with a narcisisst over a protracted period without
"catching" his disease, Steve.

Sam Vaknin, Ph. D., author of "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited"

"Narcissism is contagious. The narcissism creates a "bubble universe",
similar to a cult. In this bubble, special rules apply. These rules do not
always correspond to outer reality.

Using complex defence mechanisms, such as projective identification, the
narcissist forces his victims - spouse, mate, friend, colleague - to "play a
role" assigned to him by "God" - the narcissist.

The narcissist rewards compliance with his script and punishes any deviation
from it with severe abuse.

In other words, the narcissist CONDITIONS people around him using
intimidation, positive and negative reinforcements and feedback, ambient
abuse ("gaslighting"), covert, or controlling abuse, and overt, classical
abuse. Thus conditioned, the narcissist's victims gradually come to
assimilate the narcissist's way of thinking (folie a deux) and his modus
operandi - his methods.

You can abandon the narcissist - but the narcissist never abandons you. He
is there, deep inside your traumatic memories, lurking, waiting to act out.
You have been modified, very much like an alien snatching bodies."


http://samvak.tripod.com/archive40.html

Narcissists are like a black plague.

Readers are strongly advised NOT to read any of Eric's posts---because every
post of Eric's one reads brings the reader one step closer to THEIR own
destruction.
Jeff
2005-09-10 16:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Interesting to see that nothing has changed in almost 20 years.

I got my private pilot's license in 1986. In order to obtain it I had
to prevaricate *and* find a sympathetic flight examiner. It's long
since lapsed (you can afford to fly or boat, but unless you're a
basketball star or own a pizzeria in Mumbai, not both), but getting it
was an ordeal. If I wanted to renew it today, I would be unable to do
so legally.

What I found funny (ironic funny) about the whole situation was that
learning to fly was terrific for battling depression. Piloting an
airplane is a paradoxical activity. It's freedom in 3 dimensions, not
just the two-dimensional release of driving a car. At the same time, it
is a very, very intricate activity that demands your total attention
and care. While studying, preparing to fly, flying, and reliving flying
experiences there was no room in my head for depression. Everything
else takes a very distant back seat while you manouver this magnificent
aluminum beast (even a then-twenty-year-old Cessna 152 - 'the
Volkswagen of the Skies' - was a miracle to me) around the aether. It
was a massively empowering experience.

That said, I can understand the FAA's position to a limited extent. An
airplane would make one heck of a sucide weapon....or a tool for acting
out inappropriate rage. There should be a middle ground, but I'm
blessed if I know what it would be.

Be Well,

Jeff
MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
2005-09-11 02:30:46 UTC
Permalink
I should have said this in the beginning as well. It is well known that
those who suffer from serious Neuropsychiatric illnesses which affect
the brain like major depression, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia
have increased chances of developing epilepsy at some point.

Major depression is a brain disease and brain diseases increase the
chances of epilepsy and seizures occuring.

Combine this fact with the fact that practically all antidepressants
elevate the seizure threshhold (some more than others) and the fact
that pilots flying at night are around bright flashing strobes on
runways a lot, and you can kind of see some concern by the FAA.

Then factor in the well known fact that major depression in itself
causes some cognition decline (concentration problems, memory problems,
slow down in thinking speed, problems making simple decisions) and you
can REALLY see the FAA's concern.

Personally, I dont think I would want a pilot flying me around in a
large jetliner who took psych meds of any type. However, as I stated
before to you, I dont see any reason why you shouldnt be able to get a
third or second class FAA flight medical so you can fly recreationally
or perhaps commercially hauling cargo or doing something other than
hauling passengers around.

Eric
Steve
2005-09-11 02:59:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
I should have said this in the beginning as well. It is well known that
those who suffer from serious Neuropsychiatric illnesses which affect
the brain like major depression, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia
have increased chances of developing epilepsy at some point.
Major depression is a brain disease and brain diseases increase the
chances of epilepsy and seizures occuring.
Combine this fact with the fact that practically all antidepressants
elevate the seizure threshhold (some more than others) and the fact
that pilots flying at night are around bright flashing strobes on
runways a lot, and you can kind of see some concern by the FAA.
Then factor in the well known fact that major depression in itself
causes some cognition decline (concentration problems, memory problems,
slow down in thinking speed, problems making simple decisions) and you
can REALLY see the FAA's concern.
Personally, I dont think I would want a pilot flying me around in a
large jetliner who took psych meds of any type. However, as I stated
before to you, I dont see any reason why you shouldnt be able to get a
third or second class FAA flight medical so you can fly recreationally
or perhaps commercially hauling cargo or doing something other than
hauling passengers around.
Eric
culprit
2005-09-12 16:46:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
I should have said this in the beginning as well. It is well known that
those who suffer from serious Neuropsychiatric illnesses which affect
the brain like major depression, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia
have increased chances of developing epilepsy at some point.
not sure about depresson or schizophrenia, but some types of epilepsy have
been linked to bipolar disorder.
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
Then factor in the well known fact that major depression in itself
causes some cognition decline (concentration problems, memory problems,
slow down in thinking speed, problems making simple decisions) and you
can REALLY see the FAA's concern.
this i totally agree with. my ability to work efficiantly has completely
decreased due to my antidepressants and bipolar meds. i have a hard time
concentrating, my memory is shot, i even feel uncomfortable riding my
motorcycle after 10 hours at work, i can only do 2 or 3 hour rides on
weekends now, and i used to do 1000 mile day trips. though i must admit,
riding my motorcycle is still the only thing that really lifts my depression
and makes me feel alive. but i knwo my limits and would never push them
into the danger zone.
Post by MandatoryFirearmsInEveryHome
Personally, I dont think I would want a pilot flying me around in a
large jetliner who took psych meds of any type.
agreed.

however, i think maybe an ultralight or experimental aircraft might work.
or maybe a hot air balloon. does one even need an FAA license for those?

-kelly
Loading...